Re: Selling Dad’s beloved bungalow to fund his care home fees
My poor Dad, 94, is currently in hospital (since beginning of April) after another really bad fall - broken shoulder, fractured ribcage and spine, can no longer walk - so much has happened since he has been in hospital, pneumonia three times - a long story - his physical and mental health decline is catastrophic. Prior to this, he was living independently with 1 hour morning carer visits x 4 times per week - and my support.
Sadly and with a very heavy heart it would seem it has to be accepted that he can’t return home - he has what seems like rapid onset dementia, delirium and extreme confusion and does not understand why he can’t go home, it is heartbreaking.
We have just been assigned a hospital social worker and he will be discharged to a care home under D2A ‘Discharge to Assess’ for 6 weeks, once a bed is found.
I’ve been in touch with a couple of IFAs who have recommended a ‘care fees annuity’ - this would have to be put in place in the next few months before the property sale is underway.
Is a care fees annuity a good or bad idea, has anybody taken this route? At least it would provide some peace of mind that the fees are covered on-going for however long. Or is pay as you go a better option?
Finding it hard to think straight but know I have to pull myself together - feel so overwhelmingly sad bearing witness to his suffering.
I am so sorry that you find yourself in this situation.
I also looked at an annuity when my mum went into a care home at age 95. I decided against it. My IFA pointed out that the very old who go into homes live perhaps another two years, and sadly mum did not see her 96th birthday.
I cannot advise you what to do, but bear in mind (1) the IFA will probably earn some commission for setting up the annuity, (2) the money will be lost when dad dies, (3) an annuity may not cover an increase in fees and there is some talk of an uplift in care workers’ wages - an excellent thing, but will no doubt be passed on to residents.
The Carers UK helpline will be able to give you advice.
Many Thanks, Starfish, for your reply, sharing your experience and taking the time.
Although dad is in a very poor condition, one of his sisters lived to 102, so he could potentially have similar longevity - it would seem so - as he has so much wrong but his body is still somehow able to function and he is a ‘good eater’, a factor that has always saved him. One of the docs said he is in ‘last phase of life’ but I’ve been told that many times before, even years ago.
If we do pay-as-you-go, then I would be constantly worrying about the property sale proceeds running down - with fees from £1,800 per week - and as you have pointed out, any increases and unforeseen extras.
An index-linked annuity would undoubtedly be a lot of more expensive.
Oh what to do … such dilemma - so much worry, in many ways about dad and finances, keeping me awake at night, ugh.
@moon_struck has your Dad been assessed for Continuing Health Care funding - he sounds a very poorly man and this would cover all his care costs for free.
Don’t panic! The following is entirely from my own experience with my mum, take it as a Rough Guide. In fact for the moment there is no urgency, whatever happens, assessed needs must be met, Do NOT answer any questions at all about dad’s assets until the hospital have done an NHS Continuing Healthcare Assessment, which would give him free care if successful. Please look up further details on the internet, and a website called Care to be Different. Concentrate at the moment on finding an EMI (ELDERLY MENTALLY INFIRM) home where you want it to be, ideally as near you as possible. Bring together all his financial paperwork and work out his assets. If you don’t have Power of Attorney you should not be sharing this with anyone, a way of playing for time! Secure the house removing all valuables, empty the fridge, tell the insurance company dad is in hospital and won’t be going home. Now the awful bit. Google “signs of dying”. Find out about funeral costs and decide which you will use. Dad may hang on for years yet, or be gone in a week. I’ve had to deal with 3 unexpected deaths, arranging things in an emergency is terrible. From now on, make a written note of everyone you speak to, their role, address, phone number, email address, date, and what was agreed. Some people may “forget” what they say later! Finally, be kind to yourself. Carers UK has a wonderful helpline who can give you lots of information. Do you have any siblings? Has dad made a will?
Many Thanks Melly1 and bowlingbun for replies and taking the time.
Off to the hospital - so will respond when I get back, so much has gone on - in the meantime, sorry if it’s a bit garbled:
Doc (young, junior) has told me several times that dad is not eligible for NHS continuing healthcare as his needs are not ‘complex’ and that D2A ‘discharge to assess’ is the route. Physios have also said the same.
A ‘resource officer’ from adult social care, not a social worker spoke to dad last week, no notification that this was to take place - apparently they have to interview the patient alone initially to get authorisation to speak to next-of-kin - but I believe intrusive questioning took place - there is much to this, too much to say on here - as dad was very upset when we (me and hub) visited later that day, angry with us, shouting, agitated by what had been said in that meeting, disturbing the whole bay, highly embarrassing - I have now ‘demanded’ a social worker be assigned, not a resource officer - meeting to take place next week but sw wants to see dad separately first again, on monday - from what I can make out, the ‘resource officer’ asked probing questions about home, finance etc - dad kept shouting about £60,000 and his television being stolen and ref to his bungalow.
I have one elder sister - she and her extensive family have been estranged over 20 years - she doesn’t even know or care that her mother died 10 years ago.
Yes, dad has made will, I am beneficiary.
I have LPA, both - done in 2017 after dad had a stroke.
I wish I could get him home, my heart is breaking for him. I have a vague hope that it may be possible but I guess that would only be realistic (and in terms of timescale) if he was palliative and apparently he is not. I would stay with him, as I did when he had the stroke in 2016 - 3 or 4 x carer visits per day - husband (works full time) would have to do self-catering, that would be difficult though, we are in our 60s. Probably totally unrealistic for many reasons. I live 1.5 hour drive from dad’s home so unable to just pop home - it’s the only thought that lifts my heart though. A friend and hub looked after her dad (dementia) for c.2 years, to the end, she said she would do it all again, it was the right thing.
ps - quite recently a friend applied for NHS cont healthcare THREE times for her mother who was very poorly - it was only sanctioned the third time, when she was palliative.
Insist on the CHC checklist assessment. Then there should be reports done by OT and physio and a meeting involving you, it gives a clear “bench mark” against which future deterioration can be measured (unless post Covid it’s done differently). Dad’s shouting etc. must be properly recorded. Make your own notes of his behaviour. Ask for a formal apology from SSD in a formal complaint to the LA via their websit.
Another alternative is the council putting a “charge” on the house, like a mortgage, then when the house is sold they are repaid. Have you worked out how long dad‘s money will last without selling the house you need to add up his pension and his attendance allowance if he’s not getting that already then if he self funding he should be entitled to it and in addition if he’s in a nursing home, he will be entitled to something called funded Nursing care. however if the fees £1800 that would indicate that dad had extremely high care needs in which case it would appear that he may very well be entitled to continuing healthcare only the hospital can’t be bothered to do the paperwork because they know he has a house ask Google about charging for care and you should find a.gov website which explains the details related to care home charging et cetera. Hope that helps. Do you own your own home?
I can’t add much to the wealth of information that others here have already covered; but I would stress that you insist on a Continuing Healthcare Assessment, don’t just take the Docs word for it that your Dad isn’t eligible, they often don’t have a clue!
Some useful information can be found here:
I should imagine each hospital and social services work in very different ways in different areas.
Also with regard to sw decision-making - dad’s neighbour was told she could not go home after a hospital stay and was sent to a dreadful, depressing care home which she hated and was crying every day - after much battling by her husband, she was able to come home after another social work reversed the decision.
Over the years dad has been in 5 different hospitals, all with widely varying experiences - much seems to have changed for the worse since the plandemic.
I will ask for chc checklist assessment when I have meeting with social worker this week. As mentioned, so far the hospital have been totally dismissive about chc as he is not considered ‘complex’ - almost a ‘don’t dare mention that’ attitude. In the unlikely event - if he was granted chc then I would beholden to ss with no choice of care home, - of course I can’t have it both ways but that potentially could be truly awful. Which is why I’ve been exploring the ‘care fees annuity’ - at least I would have some choice for paying that huge amount of money.
from £1,800 per week (with likely lots of hidden extras, increases) is the going rate in this area, not for particularly high care needs, just standard, just super-expensive. I have been told that £2,000 per week is a “normal rate”. None of the care home websites seem to give much clarity on fees.
Dad owns his bungalow on the south coast, we own our house 1.5 hour drive away - what are you thinking bowlingbun?
Apparently you have to enter into a ‘loan agreement’ with the council - interest rates vary from council to council - plus weekly ‘admin fee’ to pay, which no doubt would go up.