Third Party Mandate - Nightmare!

All about caring
1

Hi Guys,

Wondering if anyone has any tips/advice or just general opinion on this.
I am the third party mandate on my Gran’s bank account (only reason we even informed the bank of this was because she moved into a nursing home earlier this year and she had no way of informing them of her change of address, except via me, due to speech issues).
When Gran was diagnosed with her condition, at the start of this year, I bought the LPA forms- she “didn’t want to bother with them”, which has now led us into a sticky situation with the bank.

For a long time, due to Gran being housebound and eventually bedbound, I’ve been using her debit card to withdraw her cash (at her request), on a regular basis. Some of this has been saved towards funeral costs (she’s adamant she wants to pay for her own) and some is used for daily expenses (i.e. tena pads, magazines, books, sweet treats, clothes and the like).

2 weeks ago, the bank phoned and confirmed that they suspected fraudulent activity on the account. I spoke to them and confirmed that this was all me, under the instruction of my Gran. They noted all this down and asked what the use of the money was for, which I confirmed to them, as above. I asked, at the end of the call, whether the account was therefore no longer suspended. I was told they could not confirm this and that they would write to my Gran to confirm.
Well, today I called them because no letter has been received. I’ve been told that it’s the card that’s been blocked, not the account. I told them (again) that Gran cannot confirm anything to them on the phone, nor visit in branch due to being unable to talk legibly and unable to be transported anywhere, except hospital in a hospital bed. Eventually, they said I could write a letter and get Gran to sign it.

My big gripe with this is that I did the exact same thing, only a couple of months ago, to get the third party mandate set up in the first place- how do I know this isn’t going to cause the exact same scenario again in another couple of months?
Also, think that they informed me wrongly that third party mandate “doesn’t cover the use of the account holder’s debit card by the third party”- I’m 99% sure they’ve gotten this wrong, but would love a more educated person’s feedback on this.
I am now so fed up of this being an issue that I want to start the online LPA application and will have to talk to my Gran about it.

On another note, can anyone enlighten me as to what the ‘typical’ bank process is regarding executors of Wills? I am down as the executor in my Gran’s Will- if we don’t get the LPA is this going to be another source of headache, when the inevitable happens? I really can’t afford to suddenly magic-up grands of money when the funeral directors need paying.

I had this kind of problem when my Mum passed away- she didn’t have a Will so I was told by her bank that I couldn’t access her account (the only cash she had in there was an overpayment in benefits that I was trying to pay back to the DWP because Mum’s estranged husband was too drunk and incompetent to do it himself). I’ve now got her bank contacting me, telling me that money is still in her account (over 2 years later) and they’re trying to ‘dish it out’ to the next of kin (I have no idea where the estranged husband lives, so I can’t be of use to them there). However, I digress!

Thanks in advance, all! :slight_smile:

2

For a technical answer covering the points you have raised , I would bounce said issues off the CAB :

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/

Always handy to be fully briefed before " Locking horns " with a bank ?

3

Thanks, Chris :slight_smile: Couldn’t find anything on CAB about it, but I looked elsewhere and saw that a third-party mandate is applicable in the same way that POA is, when the person whose account it is will not lose mental capacity (which is true in the case of my Gran, as she has no dementia issues).

I think the bank are talking out of their butts, to be honest!

4

__

I think the bank are talking out of their butts, to be honest!

Be nice to know … as opposed to think ?

Third party mandates … principal and agent … a minefield without specific knowledge.

5

The bank are in the wrong, I had problems with mum’s bank a few years ago, and in the end, demanded an apology and compensation for all the stress and aggro of £100, and they agreed!

I suggest you go to a different branch of the bank and ask for a 3rd party mandate form, or look at what the bank says about them on the internet. Then go back to your branch or write to head office. Remind them that they have a “duty to make reasonable adjustments for disabled people”. Somewhere I have a more formal leaflet, but don’t know where it is as I’m redecorating my dining room/study.

6

Thank you, BB, for confirming my suspicions!

Tbh, the closest branch to us is another city away, so I’ve not been able to get there (It’s been their phone line I’ve been communicating with them through all this time). It’s also one of the only banks not to be open on Saturdays, so it’s a case of weighing up whether or not to take time out of my work day (work are usually good with this kind of thing) or not.
They don’t have a third party mandate form, unfortunately- I tried to find one when they first mentioned about it (though, I found plenty of forms from all the other banks!)
I have written a letter, which I will read out to Gran later for her approval. She can then sign it, if she’s happy with it. In your opinion, do you think it’s better to send the letter or hand it into the branch in person? (meaning taking at least 2 hours out of my work day, which I’ll have to work back the hours for- i.e. is it going to make any difference how they receive it as to the action they take?)

7

LPAs cease on the death of the donor, so would not have any relevance for an executor. Usually what happens is that the funeral director’s invoice is sent direct to the bank and they will pay it out of the deceased’s account.

8

Thanks all for the replies :slight_smile: As always, very much appreciated :slight_smile:

Had a drama-filled afternoon, after initially posting on here yesterday about the issue. I had a phone call from social services, saying the bank had contacted the police about the issue and so social services then got involved. The social worker explained she went to visit my Gran yesterday to ask her questions about me using her card (i.e. when, what for and all that).
Gran explained the reasons and said (said= wrote down, due to speech issues) that she trusts me 100%, provided examples of things she’s asked me to get on her behalf and all of that.
To be honest, I shouted a little at the social worker (I know I shouldn’t have because it wasn’t her fault and I said as much to her)- the minute she mentioned police, I was in full breakdown mode. I actually cried in the toilets at work because of all this.

She told me that she’d said to Gran to get the LPA (funnily enough, I’d already filled out the online form for the LPA by the time she’d rang me). After all the stress of me trying to get Gran to read the paperwork for the LPA months ago and her having refused because ‘it’s not necessary for me because I don’t have lots of assets’, I went to see her last night and she actually read all the forms and signed them, with zero hassle (why, oh, why didn’t she do this in the first place to save us all this hassle further down the line?)

As many of you here know, the LPA can take quite a few weeks to come through. I am wondering, if the worst happens before the LPA is granted, does anyone know the answer to the following:

In Gran’s Will, it states I am the executor. However, I’ve read conflicting information on what constitutes as a ‘valid’ Will- we used the proper DIY kit, but one of the witnesses who signed the Will was my Gran’s brother. He is not a beneficiary and neither are any of his associated family (i.e. spouse, kids, grandkids on his side). Does this mean the Will is valid or not valid?

Thanks again, everyone- you guys keep me sane! :slight_smile:

9

Take about four copies of the LPA before you send it off.
One for yourself
One for the bank
One for Social Services
One spare.

POST BY RECORDED DELIVERY
the original (can’t remember where that goes to)
the bank copy
Social Services copy - put this for the attention of the social worker you spoke to with a “further to our conversation on …letter”
A few days later, check online that they arrived.
Print off their confirmation that it was signed for on arrival.

Now start a lever arch file for all future important correspondence for her, with section dividers for bank, building society etc.
This will help both of you keep track of all her finances. I know it’s not nice to think about, but when you are executor this will make that part of dealing with the estate so much easier.

10

Thanks, BB! You are a fountain of knowledge! :slight_smile:

11

Most of it learned the hard way!

12

Looks like having your great-uncle as a witness could be potentially problematic.

13

If you are an only child expecting to inherit everything, if the will was invalid you would get everything anyhow, I believe.

If not, I would always recommend a solicitor if over £20,000 is involved, then there can be absolutely no doubt that it is all done properly, and none of it done under duress.
My mum’s solicitor sent me into the garden when she spoke to mum, so that she could honestly say I didn’t have any influence.

Good job she did, as younger brother who never visited regularly was aggrieved that he didn’t get what he thought he would, and tried to get his solicitor to get him more.
Mum’s solicitor soon told him to get lost!!!

14

"Anyone can be a witness to the signing of a will, as long as they are over the age of 18 and are not blind. A witness does not have to be a professional person, and they are not required to have any special qualifications.

You should ensure that your chosen witnesses are as independent as possible; ideal witnesses could be neighbours or work colleagues. A very important point to note is that is a beneficiary must never sign the will as a witness and neither should a close relative, such as a spouse of a beneficiary. Making this mistake would mean that they would lose their inheritance (section 15 Wills Act 1837)."

That sounds like Gran’s brother signing won’t be a problem. He’s not a beneficiary, nor is he linked to any beneficiary.

BB- There’ll be nowhere near 20K. Gran only receives state pension, pension credit and a quarterly £50 from a charity.
That’s why we didn’t feel we needed a solicitor when the will was first written.
My big grievance will be if the will turns out to be invalid, that her son (my uncle) will automatically be ‘rewarded’ anything in Gran’s account. I am upset about this for 3 reasons: 1) He’s never done anything for her in her entire life, especially since she’s been diagnosed. He visits once a week (if that sometimes) and doesn’t do anything for her. 2) When my Mum (his sister) died, he got Gran to pay for funeral flowers from him- he never paid her back. At that time, Gran put her current funeral savings towards payment for the funeral (1K at the time)- my uncle contributed nothing. 3) This is the most important one: it’s completely against Gran’s wishes as to where her assets will go upon her passing.

On the bright side, I’ve just had the LPA signed by the witness, signed it myself and have sent it off so at least that side of things will be sorted.

15

Definitely get that will sorted!

16

Hi

Not sure if I’ve followed properly, but regarding the LPA, copies are only valid after the LPA has been registered and returned to you. The copy then needs to be of the registered LPA, and certified by the donor by writing:

"I certify this is a true and complete copy of the corresponding page of the original lasting power of attorney.”
and on the final page also “I certify this is a true and complete copy of the lasting power of attorney.”

Every page needs to be signed and dated.

Any copy that isn’t of an original LPA which has been registered and returned by the OPG - stamped ‘VALIDATED-OPG’ - is useless.

As long as the form is filled out correctly, the donor has capacity and the necessary procedures followed, the LPA will be registered - it’s not a ‘we’ll decide whether you can have it’ thing.

Regarding the will, as people have said, the LPA is entirely unconnected. That will be a matter of having the will naming you as executor and then applying for probate. Banks will generally release funds for a funeral on receipt of a death certificate and will.

Jane

17

Actually, it is NOT useless, because it clearly shows the intention of the “donor”.

I used my copy of mum’s LPA, awaiting finalisation, on a number of occasions, especially when dealing with the medical profession.

18

Crikey. An unregistered LPA should not have been accepted - direct contravention of the Mental Capacity Act, 2005 which states an LPA has to be registered by the OPG in order to be valid by law:

I’m afraid attempting to use an unregistered LPA could be quite problematic. Are you sure you’re not referring to an EPA here?

Jane

19

No, POA.

My mum was mentally OK but very disabled. I wasn’t using it for banking purposes, they already had a third party mandate. I was using it when mum was very ill, in hospital to show that her intention was very clear. If needed, they could have asked her themselves.

20

Hi Jane,

Thanks for the feedback- I’ll be taking the original registered LPA form in to the bank when it’s returned (I don’t actually need the LPA for anything other than the bank account because there aren’t any other ‘assets’ that my Gran owns).
My query regarding the Will was whether or not it was valid because my Gran’s brother (who is unconnected to any beneficiary) had signed as a witness and I wasn’t sure if this rendered the Will useless. I am named as executor.