We are still self funding atm but my Mother wants to give us generous presents this Christmas as she wont have any savings very soon.
How much can she give without it becoming deprivation of assets?
Interesting problem ?
One of the bibles out there on deprivation of assets … AGE UK :
Deprivation of Assets | Age UK
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What counts as deprivation of assets?
Deprivation of assets applies when you intentionally reduce your assets, such as money, property or income, so these won’t be included when the council calculates how much you need to pay towards the care you receive.
When your council is deciding whether getting rid of property and money has been a deliberate deprivation of assets, they will consider two things:
You must have known at the time you got rid of your property or money that you needed or may need care and support
Avoiding paying for care must have been a significant reason for giving away your home or reducing your savings.
It’s not just giving away your money that could be seen as a deliberate deprivation of assets. Different methods of reducing your money or property could count too, including:
giving away a lump sum of money.
transferring the title deeds of your property to someone else.
suddenly spending a lot of money in a way which is unusual for your normal spending.
gambling the money away.
using savings to buy possessions, such as jewellery or a car, which would be excluded from the means test.
If the local council thinks that you have deliberately reduced your assets to avoid care fees, they may still include the value of the assets you no longer have when they do the means test.
As for monetary value , I assume that the odd £ 50 / 100 will not raise any eyebrows ?
In the hundreds / thousands … I would bounce that off AGE UK … better to be safe than sorry ?
… and , if any recipients are also claiming any income related benefits … ?
If she wants the pleasure and satisfaction of giving substantial money presents to family, why not let her have that pleasure…BUT, YOU do NOT spend that money! Put it in a savings account or whatever, and be prepared for the Local Authority to demand it back ‘just in case’.
I’m sure your mum would like to think she ‘pulled a fast one’ over the council!!!
I was hoping for a couple of thousend to share between four of us.
May just go ahead and see what happens! She has given 500 here and there in the past, so not totally out of character.
Honestly if she had no savings the ruddy council would be paying already.
Our carers (on a side note) are really really good. So glad we found them.
If you can prove past gifts that would help, or show receipts where she bought gifts to a similar value in the past.
It helps if there is a past pattern of giving/ expenditure.
Might be better to do it in smaller but more frequent amounts for a reason e.g., to pay towards college fees, petrol for taking her out, an anniversary dinner etc.
In other words so it doesnt look like sudden cash giveaways
They might not be so interested in just a couple of thousand in total, it’s bigger sums that really stick out
Yes, probably better for her to ‘fritter it away’ rather than any ‘lump sums’. Don’t make it ‘too regular’ though, or that might look pre-planned! If it’s a bit ‘erratic’ it looks less deliberate??
By the way, have you explored your mum PAYING you to look after her as a way of her money passing to you (and quite justifiably!)? It’s a bit of a ‘dodgy’ area - you don’t want to end up having to pay tax on what she pays you, for example! There is a fair amount on the website here about how to do it simply and legally.
Also, if she is living in YOUR house, she can become your lodger, and pay you for that. My friend did that for her dad until he moved into a care home. (ie, her dad paid her lodger’s rent). And, of course, your mum should ‘pay her way’ in terms of paying for her food, electricity, clothes, etc etc etc.
I definitely agree with keeping an audit trail ‘just in case’.
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By the way, have you explored your mum PAYING you to look after her as a way of her money passing to you (and quite justifiably!)? It’s a bit of a ‘dodgy’ area - you don’t want to end up having to pay tax on what she pays you, for example! There is a fair amount on the website here about how to do it simply and legally.
Very dodgy area to say the very least.
So much so , with CUK to try and sort out … both with the TaxMan ( HM Revenue and Customs ) and DoleMan ( DWP ).
https://www.carersuk.org/forum/support-and-advice/carer-disability-benefits/attendance-allowance-pip-paid-to-family-carer-there-are-problems-not-advertised-33078?hilit=direct%20payments
https://www.carersuk.org/forum/support-and-advice/all-about-caring/direct-payments-paying-a-family-member-to-care-no-but-the-jury-is-out-30902?hilit=direct%20payments
Believe me , it won’t be easy even if the end result may change the way carers and carees interact financially.
Good advice from Chris!
The taxman likes to feed off us at all times in all ways.
Also, don’t forget that anything your mum spends that is for HER good, not yours alone, is justifiable. For example, she could buy a car that is for YOU to drive her to hospital appointments etc etc.
Or, maybe, SHE could pay for Sky TV or whatever, because SHE likes to watch it.
I’m inclined to err on the side of caution.
I do understand that having court of Protection for my husband is more controlled, but POA is still controlled, ( from what I gather) and questions can be asked. Personally I would seek advice. Proving best interests of the person you have POA for.etc
Pet raises a good point. Irrespective of whether or not the council will come after you for deprivation of assets if they have to pay her care home fees at any point, if you have PoA, and she has any kind of mental impairment, you are making yourself susceptible to accusations of embezzling the funds of a mentally vulnerable individual.
How ‘persuaded’ was she to give you thousands of pounds ‘as a gift’??
As in, that would be the potentially criminal accusation you may be opening yourself up to???
… and , unlike a Court of Law , one has to prove themselves innocent ???
Yep!
I suppose they have to err on the side of the potentially very vulnerable caree??
sorry to revive this thread, however it seemed to me that it’s kinda weird to say your mum how much money she should give you, don’t you think so? By the way, speaking of money as a gift? What do you think: is it better to give your close people money as a gift or real gifts, like memories and emotions received? I’d personally rather enjoy something real, not money, I mean, money you can earn on your own. Last week I had birthday, my family ordered a basket full of beer I was dreaming of it for so long, you can’t even imagine. Great gift!
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It all depends on her choices, and how much she can give without it being a problem. Honestly speaking.